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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 1 post(s)
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.08.03 00:14:00 - [1] i mostly agree with Testy Minnies have some very fluffy concepts... that doesn't work very well with their weapons too i can see the point to shield tank a proj ship (as proj have crap dps) and use lows for damage... but when you do that you have to give to the ship the bonuses and slots needed for the role it will cover... is not that "is minnie" so it have crap midslots and 7.5 shield boost bonus even if is obvious that in a fleet battle these things are not going to work... and as testy said to have 450sig instead of 500 or 115 speed instead of 110 is hardly any balance for these problems and will still not help the ship to fulfitt its fleet role.
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.08.03 00:45:00 - [2] Originally by: Sovereign533 come on, read the dev blog. they are STILL WORKING on the Maelstrom and the Hyperion.. i read the blog, for sure they are still working on them and it seem Tux is considering to replace the shield boost bonus... but also it seem that he is still focused about his idea of minnie ships are so and so shield tankers so "few" mid slots and low shield hps
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.08.03 00:58:00 - [3] Edited by: Ath Amon on 03/08/2006 00:58:48 Originally by: Sovereign533 Originally by: Kaleeb Originally by: Outa Rileau What is this with "OMG WE WANT 7 DMIS NWO NOW NOW!!11" sh*t? I've been tanking my raven with 6 midslots for a long long time... I even know people who shield tank tempests with no problems Thats because your raven is an afk pvp ship. Lock, press missiles, go get a beer, press shield booster, see the wife, come back and collect killmail. When using turrets you have to consider tracking and range something that med slots are very much needed for. so a raven has 5 slots to tank with. 1. no need for propulsion 2. no need for webber Raven 1x Xl booster 1x amp 2x invun II 1x cap booster 1x 20k scram Maelstorm (if it could be used close range) 1x Ab/mwd 1x webber 1x scram 1x cap booster o gee i have a 2 slot tank they said that the maelstrom isn't designed to be a short range dmg dealer/tank/tackler.. it needs other ships to do this.. Mael (1) mid 3 sensors 3 tracking comps (remember that 1400mm have the worst tracking) low 3 gyro 0-1 grid? 2-3 plates/hards wait is a tempest! Mael 2 mid 3 sensors 2-3 hards/extenders 0-1 tracking low 3 gyro 0-1 grid? 2-3 traks 2-3 shield tank woot! rokh mid 2-3 sensors (caldari have "long" range sensors while minnie "short" range) 4-5 hards/extenders low 4 field stabs 1 grid/cpu they seem equal?
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.08.03 06:12:00 - [4] Originally by: Dethis Some people have selective reading they seem to choose to ignore the fact its not finalized Honestly everyone complaining is jumping the gun until they have a concrete idea of what it will be just chill out ps rabble rabble rabble i agree many people have selective reading, not just for dev blogs, but even for posts i think minmatar pilots are worried for the first part of the post about the mael Originally by: dev blog Maelstrom med slots, the argument I've seen so far is that it needs at least 3 slots for speed mod, webbie and a scrambler, anything less than 4 slots is too little to tank with. I recognize that logic but we intend the Maelstrom to be a shield tanking artillery boat, relying on other ships to tackle for you. from these lines it seem that Tux is still sticking with a 6 med slot config and have no intention to put to 7... also some post above, just to quote myself ... Originally by: Ath Amon Originally by: Sovereign533 come on, read the dev blog. they are STILL WORKING on the Maelstrom and the Hyperion.. i read the blog, for sure they are still working on them and it seem Tux is considering to replace the shield boost bonus... but also it seem that he is still focused about his idea of minnie ships are so and so shield tankers so "few" mid slots and low shield hps
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.08.03 12:30:00 - [5] Edited by: Ath Amon on 03/08/2006 12:30:40 Originally by: Jenny Spitfire did support the missile changes. Minmatar could do more upgrading but IMHO their ships are quite versatile. Add versatility and decent CPU and nice grid size, you can really have some crazy ships though. That is the hard part in balancing Minmatar ships. this is quite an interesting point... but where you get versatility? i think a common mistake is that a ship is versatile when its slot allocation is not focused on something particular. even if to a degree is true you can't always apply this principle... for example the phoon have a 4/4 missile/turret allocation, even if "looking at it" it could seem a versatile allocation actually it is not as the ship have 1 of the 2 armaments clearly better than the other and is built in a way to not be usefull in mid-long range. so instead to have a versatility of role we have a ship that is basically usefull for ganking (and that requires tons of sps). another bad example can be indeed the maelstorm this ship is probably going to have a shield bonus and again an 8/6/6 slot allocation can seem versatile but really is not. to be effective probably it need to use at least 3-4 mid slots so what is left is not really enought to fit a decent shield tank (as both caldari and amarr ships will probably do) you can go with an armor setup but you are going to waste 1 of your bonuses and have a ship too similar to a tempest (imo tempest will be better with armor tank) to be really versatile a ship like that need a lot of mid slots, enought to fit the midslots necessary to have an efficent ship and then a good amount of exceeding slot to fit a good tank, ecm, eccm and so on... this is imo versatility, is not a split allocation but to be able to have very different effective fittings or to be able to mix different kind of warfare taking good advantage of it.
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.08.03 13:05:00 - [6] Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne i was really thinking that you were aware of how easy it s to armor-tank em damage and what kind of damage lasers do. just take a look at the base armor resists on amarrian ships and then take a look at the kind of damage our enemies (the minnies) do mostly with their weapons. then have a look at base armor resists on minmatar ships and compare those to the kind of damage their enemies (amarrians) do mostly with their weapons. we already have a hard time doing damage to armortanked minmatar ships if they add 1 thermic hardener. now if they want to go for a more general defense and fit an eanmII + dc tank we will do real crappy damage against them. sure if we do the same our resist for exp and kin go up as well but not to the levels you get for em-damage on a tanked minmatar ship. and from what i gathered here you think that an 80+ resistance to em-damage just doesnt cut it for minmatar battleship. furthermore you said the abaddon was on top when it comes to ranged damage. if we want range we have to fit crystals that are even more em-heavy increasing the problem even further. edit: i'm not against giving it the slots for an armortank ..but it really shouldnt get any bonuses for that. yup the problem of amarr is not by the damage type itself, but by the fact that 2.7 race armor tank while the only real shield tanker race is caldari also, as caldari where not exactly a popular race for pvp, the problem was even more evident in battles. i think that actually with the introduction of these new BS, things should improve amarr, rokh will probably be very popular, eventually replacing the mega, and mael will compete with tempest for fleet alpha strike. i expect to see the "new fleets" will be composed at least by a 50% of shield tanked ships making em damage more effective than now. on the other hand i fear arty will lose a bit in popularity as shield tanks have good explo resist and its dps (vastly inferior to amarr) well be not good enought to keep it near other turret types.
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.08.03 22:04:00 - [7] is just that 2 factors are not in 1) tracking (pulse have not a very good one) 2) res as most bs armor tank if you can stay over 15-20km, or web your opponent, or use tracking comp then tracking is not that big issue still res remain but that really depends by your opponent not by yourself... also proj and acs more or less have the same problems, there is a kind of tank that highly resist to their main damage. for proj actually the situation is a bit worse as they are the weapon with the lowest dps... for now they do ok cause, as said, most ships armor tank and close range they can eventually use t1 with different damage... but if shield tanked ships will become more popular i think we will have for proj the same problems we see now on lasers.
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.08.04 05:51:00 - [8] Originally by: Cohkka Edited by: Cohkka on 03/08/2006 23:31:19 Originally by: Ath Amon is just that 2 factors are not in 1) tracking (pulse have not a very good one) 2) res as most bs armor tank Tracking doesn't realy matter, since most times a web is used anyway and the other ship won't get a 500m/sec transversal since he want's to hit you as well. And he factored in tracking. Or are you just posting for the sake of *****ing? Then get back to your Amarr thread and go whine some more... lol guy have you read my post or just that 2 lines? i was just answering why the difference between the graph and experienced combat... but i have alredy done it so no need to post again here and have you read my other posts about minmatar ships? i think is quite clear that i fly minnie so before to try to flame someone... read what he says
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.08.04 13:13:00 - [9] tracking bonus imo is quite useless arty for sure have a bad tracking but the ships is anyway forced to equip 3 tracking comps/enhancers so at 150km the benefit to have such bonus will be very low (i'm speaking of bs vs bs) so imo it will be mostly a wasted bonus... also i'm not really against the idea to have an arty/good tank platform, but the tank should be good and not gimped by slots. so shield tank is ok but with 7 if not 8 mid slots, good base shield hps, and enought grid/cpu to play a bit with fitting
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.08.04 13:44:00 - [10] Originally by: Mr Bright How about a falloff bonus? 10% would mean arties would get to 80+ falloff and it would also be good for autocannons. So it would not bind us to one type of weapons, would be different and utilize the large fall off on all projectile weapons. some days ago i tried to play a bit with faloff with NS spreadsheet and have not liked it too much, again imo the benefits are not good enought to use a bonus for it. for AC also we have alredy the situation where with T2 range ammo the best range against blasters is over 20km and with lasers is better to stay quie close... it could be nice for hail, but there the speed factor will be a real problem as you will lose the ability to dictate range and so the benefits of faloff bonus.
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.08.04 14:51:00 - [11] Edited by: Ath Amon on 04/08/2006 14:54:00 Originally by: Godar Marak Originally by: Ath Amon is just that 2 factors are not in 1) tracking (pulse have not a very good one) 2) res as most bs armor tank In other words those graphs are useless because they dont represent the real picture? no they are not useless as they picture the weapon/ship base dps... the values out are the ones not depending by you but by your opponent... sure if the amarr will shot at a guy with 95% EM and therm res his damage will be quite inferior to the one shown in the graph and as res (and even speed) are a factor that vary a lot from opponent to opponent you can't calculate it... you can check the damage against certain res, sure, but it will be an arbitrary decision. for speed (in BS vs BS) it can be a bit easier as the difference is not huge and a bit of speed (outside web) can give the idea of how tracking will impact global dps... but in the end what you see in the graph is the best possible dps of various weapons, then is up to you to "meditate" on these values considering other parameters as possible res or speed. also NB put his spreadsheet for download, so everyone can play with it and see how things work in various situations as NB said the best thing

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